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Nightowll
Senior Member
Italian
- Feb 16, 2019
- #1
According to dictionaries, scruff means the skin at the back of the neck. Taking someone by the scruff of the neck means holding the back of their neck.
I think by the scruff of can be used when someone is holding the back of someone else's collar, instead of the neck itself.
The woman grabbed her son by the scruff of his T-shirt.
The woman grabbed her son by the scruff of his neck.
When the woman was holding the collar of her young son's T-shirt, can I say either? Are both by the scruff of his T-shirt and by the scruff of his neck acceptable?
lingobingo
Senior Member
London
English - England
- Feb 16, 2019
- #2
A T-shirt does not have a scruff. You could really only say that as a joke.
N
Nightowll
Senior Member
Italian
- Feb 16, 2019
- #3
Thanks!
So neither is acceptable? I thought it was fine because I found the expression the scruff of his shirt in Google Books.
Would a shirt have a scruff, but not T-shirt?
lingobingo
Senior Member
London
English - England
- Feb 16, 2019
- #4
The scruff of his neck is fine. Any use of scruff in relation to clothes is just someone playing with the word, or misunderstanding it.
Y
You little ripper!
Senior Member
Australia
Australian English
- Feb 16, 2019
- #5
There are a reasonable number of Google hits for “scruff of the shirt/collar” and a couple for “scruff of the T-shirt”. Its meaning seems to be evolving.
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Nightowll
Senior Member
Italian
- Feb 16, 2019
- #6
Thank you!
So the scruff of could only be used with the neck traditionally, but you might say the scruff of his shirt too if you are not speaking traditionally.
By the way, the Google hits are about 104,000 results for "the scruff of his neck", and about 30,700 results for "the scruff of his shirt" with quotation marks. Though this doesn't take possible regional difference into account.
PaulQ
Senior Member
UK
English - England
- Feb 16, 2019
- #7
Nightowll said:
By the way, the Google hits are about 104,000 results for "the scruff of his neck" and about 30,700 results for "the scruff of his shirt"
Never trust those figures! There were 200 results for "the scruff of his shirt". Always go to the last page of the search results and read the notice.
From Google:
Your search - "the scruff of his shirt" - did not match any documents.
Suggestions:
- Make sure that all words are spelled correctly.
- Try different keywords.
- Try more general keywords.
Notices about Filtered Results
In order to show you the most relevant results, we have omitted some entries very similar to the 200 already displayed.
Myridon
Senior Member
Texas
English - US
- Feb 16, 2019
- #8
PaulQ said:
Never trust those figures! Always go to the last page of the search results and read the notice:
It says that after showing me 154 results that it did find In order to show you the most relevant results, we have omitted some entries very similar to the 160 already displayed.
I think it says 160 because it is the 16th page even though the last page doesn't have 10 items. It seems to be a little buggy today.
If you like, you can repeat the search with the omitted results included.
Regardless, 154 is a small number for the Internet.
PaulQ
Senior Member
UK
English - England
- Feb 16, 2019
- #9
The scruff (also scuff and cuff) is the nape (back) of the neck of an animal. Most frequently encountered when cats and dogs carry their kittens/puppies by the scruff of the neck.
User With No Name
Senior Member
US English (Texas)
- Feb 16, 2019
- #10
PaulQ said:
The scruff (also scuff and cuff) is the nape (back) of the neck of an animal. Most frequently encountered when cats and dogs carry their kittens/puppies by the scruff of the neck.
Exactly. But actually, "scruff of his t-shirt" actually sounds just fine to me in humorous or informal usage. It suggests that the kid is behaving like a little animal, and that Mom, frustrated, is treating him (and thinking of him) as one.
I kind of like it, actually, as long as the speaker understands that it's humorous and not really standard.
JulianStuart
Senior Member
Sonoma County CA
English (UK then US)
- Feb 16, 2019
- #11
User With No Name said:
Exactly. But actually, "scruff of his t-shirt" actually sounds just fine to me in humorous or informal usage. It suggests that the kid is behaving like a little animal, and that Mom, frustrated, is treating him (and thinking of him) as one.
I kind of like it, actually, as long as the speaker understands that it's humorous and not really standard.
The numbers are low (so not quantitatively reliable) but this "humorous/non-standard" use is not unprecendented
Changing the "English" to "British English" in this Ngram plot shows that the exampes are all considered American English.
lingobingo
Senior Member
London
English - England
- Feb 16, 2019
- #12
When a person rather than an animal is meant, the term “holding him by the scruff of the neck” does not literally mean the skin of his neck; it means the back-of-the-neck part of whatever garment he’s wearing – shirt, jacket, etc. This could certainly explain the use by some people of scruff of the shirt or T-shirt instead of neck. The fact remains that (as I said above) to most people it would probably sound like a joke or misunderstanding.
rather belatedly cross-posted
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Myridon
Senior Member
Texas
English - US
- Feb 16, 2019
- #13
It does seem odd that we generally say the whole phrases "the scruff of his neck" and "the nape of his neck" even though "scruff" and "nape" both refer to the neck by themselves. It's easy to see how someone could jump to the conclusion that other things have "napes" or "scruffs".
N
Nightowll
Senior Member
Italian
- Feb 16, 2019
- #14
PaulQ said:
Never trust those figures! There were 200 results for "the scruff of his shirt". Always go to the last page of the search results and read the notice.
You are right, there are less than 200 results for "the scruff of his shirt". Most strangely, I can only find 90 results for "the scruff of his neck" and 210 results for "the scruff of the neck". I didn't know Google was this unreliable for the popularity of a phrase.
So I can say by the scruff of his neck even when the woman was holding her son's T-shirt around the neckline.
PaulQ
Senior Member
UK
English - England
- Feb 16, 2019
- #15
Nightowll said:
I didn't know Google was this unreliable for the popularity of a phrase.
It's something to do with the Google algorithm - It may seek out all combinations of the words, regardless of the quotation marks and then present the best matches first.
The Google Ngram viewer (Julian @ #11 above) is much better but is somewhat unreliable in distinguishing BE and AE and seems to have ended in 2008.
Nightowll said:
So I can say by the scruff of his neck even when the woman was holding her son's T-shirt around the neckline.
Yes. I should have added that the scruff of the neck, in animals, is usually understood as the loose skin at the back of the neck, thus loose clothing works as well.
Y
You little ripper!
Senior Member
Australia
Australian English
- Feb 17, 2019
- #16
lingobingo said:
When a person rather than an animal is meant, the term “holding him by the scruff of the neck” does not literally mean the skin of his neck; it means the back-of-the-neck part of whatever garment he’s wearing – shirt, jacket, etc. This could certainly explain the use by some people of scruff of the shirt or T-shirt instead of neck.
Scruff of the neck definition and meaning | Collins English Dictionary
If someone takes you by the scruff of the neck, they take hold of the back of your neck or collar suddenly and roughly.
It also has the figurative meaning of taking control of someone or something.
N
Nightowll
Senior Member
Italian
- Feb 17, 2019
- #17
PaulQ said:
The Google Ngram viewer (Julian @ #11 above) is much better but is somewhat unreliable in distinguishing BE and AE and seems to have ended in 2008.
I tried using the viewer. This is very useful, thanks!
The woman grabbed her son by the scruff of his neck (and she is actually holding his T-shirt, scarf, or whatever is around the back of his neck).
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